code name LOOP- the next Xbox

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clok1966
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MS is starting he long road to the next X-Box with some basic specs sent to manufactures to start planning on production. it sounds like the new 360 will be ARM which has been around a long tim and is an excellent architecture but is quite debatable on its choice for a game console do to certian limitations. Clock speed being the first, ARM is no where near current stuff and is one reason most manufatures have left it. No multicore, so you will offload alot to other chips (higher fail rate, something MS should be painfully carefull of this time around), ARM while fast has very few multi insturction sets.. so each and everything needs to be programed, instead of letting he code work for you, you will be doing "ALL" the coding.. which is good and bad. Good- you control it 100%, bad it take way more time.. Suddenly SOny's hard to program machines wont look so hard.. or at least it will be a wash.. which is bad for gamers.. (and might be one of MS reasons) due to extra time more studios will ahve to either pick, or start porting sloppy. The 4byte instruction limit is ... well limiting especially for graphics.. which may not be to big a deal.. as most graphics are offloaded onto a another chip .. but it limits choices.
I'm sure the big reason is Price.. ARM is cheap to make (which means they ahve takein notice that they are pushing hte boundries on price now), creates less heat, etc.. but is simply a step behind right now.. of course this is suposed ot be a NEW arm chip.. so who knows. I guess I will side with "the greatest chipmakers so far havent been able to get over some humps with ARM, i doubt MS will" Good news is they are staying backword compatible yet again ( or want to).. No matter what Sony or Nintendo think.. its a HUGE deal to me.. SOny swapping to "pay again, download to play" to play old titles instead of just leaving the backwards compatiblity in was a MONEY grab pure and simple.. and was bad news.

it sounds like they are trying to grab some domains named X-boxTV and the like so .. take that with a grain of salt.. we all know there will be more TV on the 360, but the rumor mill says MS is pushing that DO ALL BOX thing again, Im sure since APPLE is releasing another stab at APPLE TV that will be a DO all box too, ALL your APPS on the TV!!!!, soon we wil be back ot those OLD huge pixils again :) (with a new name again) late this year MS wants in too.

The really big news is its all being wrote for win 8 (or whatever MS will call it) it will be a using that OS but covering it in a dashboard. WHich in the long run will BE HUGE for cheaper devolpment for MS.. and any PC game companies.. which should be a HUGE draw for anybody who develops on both. Good or bad, not sure.. OS's are not devolped for gameing.. so it should be a small hinderance in the end. More MONEY sence then gameing sence. This should mean game devolped correclty (took almost 3 years this console generation)on the consoles with gaming only in mind will end up being better at the tend of the consoles life.

A do-all box has been tried by several companies. Sony had a PS2 one that flopped about 8years or so ago (even in Japan), Apple has tried it 2X (and floped) and is almost ready to try its 3rd time (and with apples record lately it might be the right time).. Now MS want to do it.. More of the.. hey everybody else has done the work. lets jump in with a boatload of cash.. Im not sure what to think.. MS has released 1 peice Of gameing hardware that was succesfull (the 360) up to this point they have never released any hardware that made them money (even counting mice).. All failed... the joysticks, the mice, the driving controls the first xbox.. even Kinect is starting to look like a fail (for gameing, MS has only 6 titles still in prodcution of an announced or in development 20+ from earlier) But they are sure pusing 3rd party to use it.. kinda a hard sell when MS isnt even really backing it (for gameing) anymore. Though i must admit the 360 Kinect comercials look much better then the SONY move ones right now.. Kinect is a NORMAL family playing games ( i would almost want one after seeing it if i didnt ahve one that wasnt used), MOVE has some strange party with glitter falling, ballons and 50 people all watching a couple play MOVE.. WTH? Lose sight of your core buyer much?

So in the end.. cheaper to produce, less heat, more chips (not good, but i guess you can spin that too, UNITS SOLD can count replacements too like it did on the 360 (which still fails 2X more then the Wii or the PS3 if Gamestop returns are correct), backwards compatiblity (GREAT), and More TV.. APP store (from Win 8, or should i say APPPLE).

just speculation from some chip spec sheets.. its all bunk or true.. or most likley in the middle some where.. a kernal of truth (in the parts where Im not just ranting or rambling) :)

Bill Loguidice
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clok1966 wrote:

me talking about one tick pony .. and im stuck in rut game idea wise.. talking tradtional.. there in is the real test.. I guess I know how cool Kincet is.. now give me somthing to play with it.. I guess saying its "ho hum" is wrong in every sence.. its not.. it ho hum what they are doing with it so far. I can see Kinect having that one game that changes everything..... but yep, we just havent seen it yet.. Its just so frutrating.. I really loved MOH on the Wii, Killzone with Move, and wanted more.. and they dont do it.. Now I never really liked Alan Wake on the 360.. but taht might be pretty cool with Kinect.. moving your hand around for the light. I keep thinking something like the early VR games.. Im a bit shocked nobody has attempted that yet.

I wont lie i really like the voice control and swipe stuff.. all Johnny nemonic like.. I would Kill for a Dungeon keeper game (no more mouse hand, its MY HAND!!!!!) i might never quit slapping my creatures and picking stuff up.

I never tried Medal of Honor on Wii, though I do have the full Move/plastic rifle Killzone setup. I honestly struggled a great deal with it and didn't enjoy it as much as I hoped. It's awesome playing light gun shooters with it, though. I was VERY disappointed with the Move support added to Heavy Rain. I can see something like that working better on Kinect, though again you run into the issue of walking around, which is at present still best with an analog stick.

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clok1966
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me talking about one tick

me talking about one tick pony .. and im stuck in rut game idea wise.. talking tradtional.. there in is the real test.. I guess I know how cool Kincet is.. now give me somthing to play with it.. I guess saying its "ho hum" is wrong in every sence.. its not.. it ho hum what they are doing with it so far. I can see Kinect having that one game that changes everything..... but yep, we just havent seen it yet.. Its just so frutrating.. I really loved MOH on the Wii, Killzone with Move, and wanted more.. and they dont do it.. Now I never really liked Alan Wake on the 360.. but taht might be pretty cool with Kinect.. moving your hand around for the light. I keep thinking something like the early VR games.. Im a bit shocked nobody has attempted that yet.

I wont lie i really like the voice control and swipe stuff.. all Johnny nemonic like.. I would Kill for a Dungeon keeper game (no more mouse hand, its MY HAND!!!!!) i might never quit slapping my creatures and picking stuff up.

Bill Loguidice
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Good point, but...
clok1966 wrote:

Kinect is awsome.. but how do you make a FPS work with it.. you can do everything BUT move.. do i march in place to move forward? if so how do i move back? How do i do it in a FP paltformer? a msytery game? a sports game (that isnt just teh base mechanics)? Kincet is so cool cus it tracks and sees so much.. but so limited by not letting oyu use a handheld controler.. IF they had a wireless joystick.. wow.. waht they could do.. but MS wont .. it would be admiting teh Wimote had some better ideas..

personaly Kinect with the wimote thumbstick would be the stuff... doing the fake gun finger point, crouching to hide, leaning to lean.. , jumping to jump.. you could do so much with it (game wise).. it would make Wimmote and move look silly.. (and it almost does now) its just got that limitation..

I can see there is HUGE potential. I just am not seeing it in games, and that is my reasoning why its no big deal.. right now.

I totally get your point, but I'm not looking at Kinect as a replacement for games requiring traditional controls. Traditional controls - just like the mouse and keyboard on the PC - are still the best - bar none - for traditional games and activities. They're time tested. What needs to be done - and I think you suggested this as well - are for NEW ways to make use of this technology to be thought up. A game like Dance Central 2, as one example, may be an IDEAL use of Kinect, but it's also not a particularly innovative, or at its core, interesting, use. It works beautifully, but it's OBVIOUS, just like all the mini-game things. That to me is where the challenge comes in and where we'll want all the kinks worked out THIS generation so for the next generation we can have truly original experiences that the Kinect concept embodies, even though it has only been hinted at thus far (The Gunstringer is one game that hints at fairly unique applications). With all of the improvements to Kinect already, perhaps it will need a true generation two paired with an Xbox 720 before truly unique experiences will be possible, but who knows?

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clok1966
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I guess im just so stuck on

I guess im just so stuck on the 'one trickpony " thing.. having all three.. the Wiimote works well and did a suprisngly good job with those early games (avatar sports games).. none where terribly challnageing as the wiimote was simply not pin point acurate but they where fun with firends. but it started to lose its luster when the games where "forced" to use the wiimote.. I keep mention the door opening in metroid but it just seems so glaring dumb.. fast action game, shoot most doors to open um.. no wait LETS grab, pull back and twist to open some doors!, why? CUZ we can!.. its like playing a really fun game and having somebody stand in front of the tv to be annoying eveyr so often.. Then MOVE.. teh same games all over again ( avatar sports games).. the SINGLE game it shined in was Killzone with the gun controler (but Wii already had teh medal of Honor game it pretty much copied).. Now Kinect.. dance and exercise are its strong points.. and yes even a fancy dashboard controler.. but not much else.. YES its got HUGE possiblities.. its doing amazing stuff in the modding community.. but I mentioned those 9 game MS has.. well they are all pretty much repeats.. sports... etc.. None of these guys seem to know how to do anything but copy the nintendo ideas.. MS is getting into that "force it" mode now.. developers are tlaking about how much MS wantes kinect in game.. its not about if it works well, its about making it mandatory.. which .. yes.. in the long run is maybe good. the more of them there are the more people will be willing to press new ideas.. but putting it in games where its not worth the time just so its in there.. not good. tehy all do specfic things really well.. wimote and move, swing type motions and shooting /pointer stuff... Kinect body motion.. this should be a HUGE plus for fighting games. Street fighter, or a "good" boxing game. I can see so much cool stuff it could do.. but it simply needs a controler (the thumb side of a wimote).. I can see an awsome FPS with you doing all the looking aiming with Kinect.. and the moving with a controler.. but MS is really pushing the" no controler" issue and doesnt want anything in your hands (maybe it messes stuff up, maybe they dont want you swing your hands with controlers in um ( no handstrap..)... Im just not sure..

Kinect is awsome.. but how do you make a FPS work with it.. you can do everything BUT move.. do i march in place to move forward? if so how do i move back? How do i do it in a FP paltformer? a msytery game? a sports game (that isnt just teh base mechanics)? Kincet is so cool cus it tracks and sees so much.. but so limited by not letting oyu use a handheld controler.. IF they had a wireless joystick.. wow.. waht they could do.. but MS wont .. it would be admiting teh Wimote had some better ideas..

personaly Kinect with the wimote thumbstick would be the stuff... doing the fake gun finger point, crouching to hide, leaning to lean.. , jumping to jump.. you could do so much with it (game wise).. it would make Wimmote and move look silly.. (and it almost does now) its just got that limitation..

I can see there is HUGE potential. I just am not seeing it in games, and that is my reasoning why its no big deal.. right now.

Matt Barton
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I'd be shocked if ALL the

I'd be shocked if ALL the next gen consoles didn't have cameras and motion-tracking built-in. It's an idea whose time has come, and just not point in looking back. That said, I don't think we'll really see the full potential until they can do accurate or "good enough" eye tracking. Once they hit that plateau, a lot of possibilities open up that hearken back to the old "virtual reality" ideas, and the 3D possibilities are mind-blowing. Imagine if it could actually track the lens in your eye and know what you're focusing on. Then that object could appear sharp, whereas everything else would be blurry (like depth of field effects). I don't think people can imagine how revolutionary that would be, not just for games, but for any kind of video display.

Just knowing where someone was looking would be great info for developers (as well as advertisers!). You could track what doesn't get looked at much and put secrets there...Or perhaps reward people for spotting things near their "blind spots," such as the movement of a sniper.

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Bill Loguidice
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Here's my take, Clok, even if

Here's my take, Clok, even if Kinect doesn't create a swath of "must-play" games beyond say a max of a dozen titles the totality of this generation (remember, it's VERY late to this generation) - and allows for say, interesting optional uses in maybe another dozen (head tracking in Forza, dancing in Fable, etc.) - that's irrelevant to the future of the device, which is predicated on being in a sufficient number of homes, in which it's already hit the numbers it had to in that regard. Everything now is basically just gravy and getting the ducks in a row for the implementation by default in the next generation.

The big update for beta users (I'm in the beta program because of the book) hits later this week and that will feature nearly universal Kinect integration throughout the system, which will be rolled out to everyone later this year. Microsoft is betting big on Kinect, and officially supporting the PC with a proper SDK is proof of that. Microsoft is also pushing Kinect bundles hard with aggressive pricing ($50 - $100 gift cards, etc.)--I wouldn't be surprised if at least half of the Xbox 360's sold this holiday season are ones bundled with Kinect. That will mean many more units in circulation, particularly if the Xbox 360 can keep its momentum as the best selling console in 2011 (which it should).

My position is that Microsoft bet correctly by going entirely controller-free, which seems much fresher and more logical for many game types than either the Wii or Move models. Unfortunately for Sony, the Move was too much like what the Wii did and seems downright archaic in comparison to the Kinect, despite being far more appropriate for certain game types (shooters in particular).

You also have to admire that Microsoft has been able to dramatically increase Kinect's accuracy exclusively through software updates, something neither the Wii or Move have thus far seemed capable of achieving. I agree to a big degree that people grew tired of the Wii and by extension put that "fatigue" onto the Move, but I think Kinect was able to distinguish itself from the other two, being an even more accessible control scheme (and there's nothing more accessible than just doing what you'd normally do with your body).

In any case, it DOES in fact remain to be seen if a Kinect game beyond a dance/exercise game will take off to a high degree. The pinnacle of Kinect gaming is definitely "Dance Central 2", but that doesn't mean it's the only good game. My ultimate point is, though, is that it doesn't matter what happens with the gaming side of Kinect - that can limp along if need be--it's now inextricably part of the Xbox experience (for better or worse) and is clearly going to be bundled in with the next system and perhaps even have hooks within Windows 8.

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clok1966
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I wont argue all that on the

I wont argue all that on the LOOP is pretty early (and we have speculated before here on it already). The source is listed as a guy who was 100% right on the 360 and also was the first to reveal MS failed tablet to the rumor sites.. but whow nows..

kinect.. you have been far more right then me lately so you could be correct.. I just look at numbers and (the wii proves this) they dont always show the end resault. There where 28 MS titles (annouced, actually more but 21 that havent come out yet) In march.. it was soon 21.. and is now 9 (had to revise my numbers the story i read on um listed 6, but wiki lists 9).. of course many titles die.. that is the way of things. But its pretty high attrition rate by MS for a product that needs games. The the fact that MS released almost weekly figures on Kinect up till march when it was at 10K (and considering 8 million where sold in 60 days ITS a huge drop off).. it made 11K.. but in June it sold less then 100,000 units.. July was less then 30,000 and no more sales figures since.. Now keep in mind 11k seems like a lot till you figure one of the biggest video game flops ever (V Boy) sold 14k in a shorter lifespan at almost the same price. One is addon one is a complete system.. and prices 15 years ago and today are not the same either.

Gunstringer (great reviews) the first "must have" game (if you dont count eden, which also sold sqwat) sold 20,000 units and is already in the bargin bins.. Considering MOVE is a flop and "THE SHOOT" (average to poor reviews) for move sold 16,000 units on release..

I'm not sure what to think.. it sold hardware for a few months but the game market is a bit like the Wii one was.. those early adopters are trying to justify it and besides exercise games its just not doing well. I think the Wii has simply made all but the die hard a bit skeptical.. gimics.. even good ones.. dont translate into good game play no matter what they want people to think. MANY games do translate well , the dance games, the exercise ones.. but .. and I hate to bring this elephant into the room.. if you look at game sales.. FPS DOMINATE AND DWARF all other sales.. and they do not play well with the gimic controlers. IF and when MS translates some more good will towards the "family freindly" gameing Nintendo owns (non stop cus words in Live have gone a long way into preventing this) Kinect will just be .. a novelty (that is opinion only) of course 11k sales does almost take it out of novelty teritory untill you figure the last MW sold like 8 k, a singel game..

I will say its impressive, but it seems gaming is just not in the cards for it right now.. time will tell. AND they did say the next ms console it will plug into it, so thats a good thing.. I would almost suspect MS will make it almost manditory so like IE they can force it a bit.. I may just look at it to much from my point of view.. I played it almost zero.. the kids across hall (in my apartment) loved it for.. 2-3 weeks then they lost interest too.. other then some cool menu stuff (and even that really no more) its not used at all.. I do have gunstringer sitting here (Walmart and $24 was to hard to resist) but i havent opened it yet.... to much WoT and Dark Souls.

use are from WEBSITES.. VGcharts.. etc.. and as I corrected my 6 titles BY MS to 9 we already see how acurate they can be.. NONE are considered FACTS by me.. just food for thought.

I guess we can debate.. you the pro me the con :) i will probelby be on the losing end when it all plays out but its how i see it.

Bill Loguidice
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I'd take a lot of that with a

I'd take a lot of that with a grain of salt, Clok, at this point. Failure rate aside, it's fair to say that Microsoft guessed correctly spec-wise for both Xbox and Xbox 360, with the latter remaining fully competitive with the later PS3, even with the handicap of a lack of universal hard drive or Bluray.

I also disagree with your assessment of Kinect. I think Microsoft is 100% behind it, and will in fact be greatly expanding its presence on PC shortly. The difference will be that Kinect will be fully integrated into the next Xbox, not just an add-on. Generation 2 Kinect technology should be something really amazing considering how much they've improved this first generation of Kinect just with software updates.

I'd love backwards compatibility for entirely selfish reasons with the next Xbox, though not at the cost of better specs. I hope Microsoft hits 100% backwards compatibility and allows easy transfers from the old 360 to the new platform. In any case, I don't think we'll see anything until 2013 anyway, so plenty of time to speculate and see what bubbles up...

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