Legend of Grimrock: New Dungeon Master?

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Greg Johnson
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Joined: 12/01/2010

Forgive me if this has been posted before.

http://www.grimrock.net/

Playing DM on my ST was probably the most unproductive months of my life. I was totally addicted. I wonder how this will make me feel, as the original DM came out of nowhere and was like nothing else. Now, it's all been done. I look forward to the nostalgia, but I doubt that feeling of awe will come back.

Bill Loguidice
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So many threads on this to post in...
Paul H wrote:

It looks like the Grimrock team is working hard on the level editor. I still haven't picked this up yet, but I intend to the next time I have a few days to sit down with a game.

http://www.grimrock.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/first_editor_shot1.jpg
http://www.grimrock.net/2012/05/11/dungeon-editor-early-preview/

Thanks, we've been discussing it here as well: http://www.armchairarcade.com/neo/node/4705#comment-25804

What has amazed me about Grimrock is that not only does almost everyone seem to adore it (me, included), but some unexpected sources have fallen in love with it as well. It's definitely a game of the year candidate, and that's saying something on many levels. "Shameless" DM clone or not, it's flat out a great game.

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Paul H
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Joined: 10/11/2011
It looks like the Grimrock

It looks like the Grimrock team is working hard on the level editor. I still haven't picked this up yet, but I intend to the next time I have a few days to sit down with a game.

http://www.grimrock.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/first_editor_shot1.jpg
http://www.grimrock.net/2012/05/11/dungeon-editor-early-preview/

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clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
water everywhere
Greg Johnson wrote:

I, personally, like the way they've nailed the feel of the original DM without making a clone with updated graphics. I don't miss having to find skins for drinking water, but I do miss the distinctive grunt of those dinosaur-like monsters that turned into steaks when you killed them.

Now see, I had forgot about water from the first one, but in this case I think removal was a good design choice. Food, is from creatures, and so far I havent found anyplace with unlimited spawn of them (like the puzzle on level 3 where you could spawn unlimted Knights (bad design choice for a game like this-see below) food is limited, so it limits resting to at least some planning. Water was forever, if you found a fountain you could come back forever (i think?). So about all they missed by removeing it was alot of backtracking. I like the save/do all stones.. but on normal they seem to refresh lightning fast.. to fast IMHO (I abused one at the spiders).

Reason unlimited spawns is bad: In this case unless your party is really gimped (or all mages with mana concerns for fighting) they spawn at a slow enough rate I was basicly grinding them. I really wasnt loseing ground health wise fighting them. They where pretty much fast enough i wasnt bored fighting them. So in efect I could "grind" them for levels. Maybe that is the intention. People who feel the game is to hard combat wise can build a few levels to even it up. I am not sure how the monsters scale (if they scale at all) but My guess is they are built at specific levels.. so if you spent 1-2 hours (yest boreing, but people do this stuff) you would be 3-6 levels over the "normal" and teh rest of the levels would be cake. Of course this is all wrong if the mobs scale somewhat to your level. on the first playthorugh I wasnt going to spend to much time grinding them. I will admit basicly when i hit them, i killed till each memeber gained enough exp to jump 1 level.. some were almost there, soem took longer. But I saw the possiblity.. kill for a few levels and the rest of the game is easier. But I dont want easy, i want fun and challange.

Bill Loguidice
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Neat
Matt Barton wrote:

For those curious, it took me 15 hours and 45 minutes to beat the game.

Congrats. Yeah, I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to play through the whole thing other than this one time, so I'm doing my best to try to get to everything. Maybe the revised estimate should be a 12 - 25 hour experience, depending upon skill level and play style...

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Matt Barton
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I just beat it!!! Boy, if you

I just beat it!!! Boy, if you thought the other parts were hard, wait until you see the end boss. He's not so tough by himself, but all the constantly spawning trash make it keyboard-crushing difficult. Still, it's pretty sweet when you finally kill that thing!

I didn't experience any more "unfair" puzzles, thankfully, though I didn't come anywhere close to finding each and every secret. That's fine; gives me more to do later if I ever decide to play through it again.

For those curious, it took me 15 hours and 45 minutes to beat the game.

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Greg Johnson
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Joined: 12/01/2010
Well said, Clok. I like

Well said, Clok. I like their decision to include "warts & all" from DM. If they would've left out the runes/etc from Grimrock, I think they would've upset as many people as they have by not including a macro system. I think this way, the developers can get a much better consensus to see what (if anything) needs to be changed in future DLC/expansions.

I, personally, like the way they've nailed the feel of the original DM without making a clone with updated graphics. I don't miss having to find skins for drinking water, but I do miss the distinctive grunt of those dinosaur-like monsters that turned into steaks when you killed them.

All-in-all, it's been a really long time since I've had this much fun in a game. I really enjoy some titles such as Bathesda's games, but I realized that they're more enertaining than fun. Skyrim seems more to me like watching "Excalibur", while Grimrock is "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". Both enjoyable and entertaining - yet, two completely different (pun) feelings.

Of course, this is how I feel now. By the time I make it to the puzzle Matt mentions, I may feel differently. I was making good time, but one puzzle on level 4 really had me stumped for some time. I almost had to add Grimrock to Matt's "Games that made you break something" thread. The frustrating part is not that the puzzle was hard, just that the solution was so simple that I can't believe I didn't see it right away.

Finally, I agree about saving constantly. It's nice to need to save a lot because of gameplay, and not because you don't know when it's going to crash. (Are you listening Bathesda?)

Bill Loguidice
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Fantastic points, Clok,

Fantastic points, Clok, particularly about how far you go to "fix" things in an update. It's also true we all have our complaints, but one person's complaint is another person's like.

As for your save comment, I find myself doing it too, constantly. It absolutely reminds me of what I would do in the old days before a presumably big battle or after accomplishing a particularly arduous task. Again, Grimrock nails the feeling... These guys know their classic gaming, clearly.

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clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
change is good?
Matt Barton wrote:

You're asking the right question, Anderon. Why not fix the bad parts? Why slavishly copy all that bad stuff along with the good? I don't get it, myself. Even they compromised with the automapper. If people want the option to have a rune system and no macros bad enough, fine, make it an option for hardcore. For regular folks who just want to enjoy the game, load me up with modern UI stuff.

IMO, what makes the game fun is the interesting leveling up options, the combat tactics, the puzzles, and exploring the levels. I find the magic and alchemy systems just too cumbersome to be fun. I'd ordinarily object to torch and food management, but they've made that relatively painless (other than my habit of trying to carry way too much food with me). This is 2012. I shouldn't have to click more than a couple times to cast a spell or make a potion.

How hard would it have been to throw up hotbars for each character and customizable hot keys? Then you could drag your spells and abilities to the slots and put them within reach of WASD.

Ah, but there is the real heart of the matter. - WHY NOT- how far do you go? many people dont mind the rune system, the maps are ment to simulate had drawn maps.. if its going to show everything, why have a note system at all? its all on the map, you shouldnt need notes! Alchemy, it was made that way so you could experment (much like the rune system) you can wait to learn, or you can try ahead of time and figure it out on your own. I used to be "why not just give me potions all done and save me the time of making them?) well... thats so i can PICK which ones i need.. playthrouhg one i go all tanks.. dont need mana, playthrouhg two i go all mages.. I need mana.. if the game picked the potions before hand and disnt let me chose.. it makes it a differnt game in a small way. The current way lete ms pick what i need (lots of posion, lots of cure posion pots).

There come a point where you have to stick to the old, or not.. Now im not saying you are not corrrect, but correct fro you, might not be correct for player Y. You dont like runes, me, I dont mind um, but also wouldnt care if they went with a simpler form of magic. But then the discovery part which some (not all) love would be gone. So its a ying/yang.. to make you happy, somebody else has to be sad. Though i think if there was a poll on least liked holdover from the old games this might be it. I already stated magic is POWERFULL, so i feel it should be more then just click, click, click.. im not playing minesweeper, part of the games charm is its semi realtime combat, the fumbling with keys in tense moments.

your puzzle complaint.. as i havent got that far (we had a few ok days again so I was outside) I am really wondering why its got you so irate.. there is so little to work with in this game, buttons, presure pads and teleports.. im almost amazed at how much they got out of them. I'm worried its like the old Kings Quest games where a Stone thrown ina bush made a snake come out, who would climeb a tree and eat a birds egg which would anger the mommy bird so she would peck at a passing bear (if) you had hid in the hollow log at the right time, which would rush over the log and roll it to show you your missing key!... those pissed me off to no end.

the game could have been changed in many ways but i think they got it mostly right. But it is a homage to OLD games.. not a redo .. if it was it would be FP, magic would be like bullets, and so on :) they had to draw the line at the updated style someplace. YOU KNOW they said alot of the stuff people are saying.. "are we sure we want runes"? but someplace you gotta draw the line at how much you change.. and again.. maybe it would have been a good change. A simple hot bar for spells.. I understand why you want it, but dont see it as really being a huge deal .. but again, I dont mind the current system as much as many do. Im sure (as you have mentioned) some hate it..

Personally I'm finding the puzzles alot harder then I expected.. (and Im a puzzle freak on PC's right now, love the Puzzle AGENT games,take alook on STEAM sometime) Almost to the point of frustration, which is slowing my progress down bigtime. maybe i was better back in the old days.. but I just dont remeber being stuck for hours on anything back then. My only gripe (and its a small one) is .. I would have liked MORE combat and a few less puzzles.

one thing its teaching me SAVE, save again, and if you killed anything, save again.. I started to understand how easy modern games have became. I havent saved regular (expecet boss battles) in pretty much any game in years.. Skyrim, reckoning.. i would play HOURS and not save (donte get me wrong, it bit me in the butt a few times.. but not enought ot make me save like we did old school).

Anderon
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Joined: 01/01/2012
My own complaints...

I don't mind the rune magic system too much, or even the potion making or the food management (I actually like those things, personally). What I hate is that I can't seem to easily manage my potions, or things in my inventory. I can't tell you how many times I've died fumbling around trying to use a potion.

BUT - it's a start, and I tell you - if they were the release this as open source, I'd be thrilled. I'm an artist (in the video game industry no less) and I'd love to reskin this...

David Jackson
http://www.starhelm.org

Matt Barton
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Joined: 01/16/2006
That's it
Anderon wrote:

Matt, I agree about the polishing; but the thing is, the original had all the same rough spots. Chaos Strikes Back (the sequel) had the same automap, and journal. All the same weaknesses that were in the original. Which is kind of strange - you would have thought that they would have fixed up the weak spots. Was their goal to have a perfect copy, but with their own puzzles?

You're asking the right question, Anderon. Why not fix the bad parts? Why slavishly copy all that bad stuff along with the good? I don't get it, myself. Even they compromised with the automapper. If people want the option to have a rune system and no macros bad enough, fine, make it an option for hardcore. For regular folks who just want to enjoy the game, load me up with modern UI stuff.

IMO, what makes the game fun is the interesting leveling up options, the combat tactics, the puzzles, and exploring the levels. I find the magic and alchemy systems just too cumbersome to be fun. I'd ordinarily object to torch and food management, but they've made that relatively painless (other than my habit of trying to carry way too much food with me). This is 2012. I shouldn't have to click more than a couple times to cast a spell or make a potion.

How hard would it have been to throw up hotbars for each character and customizable hot keys? Then you could drag your spells and abilities to the slots and put them within reach of WASD.

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