reliving the past-TOEE

All this talk of great old RPG's and such, and my silly atempts to replay games I have already played I decieded to play one I hadnt. I picked of TOEE off GOG (I'm almost sure I already bought it someplace else, but I cant find it). So after about 4 hours my first thoughts.. warning, not all good. keep in mind I havent played this one.

The game looks well done, even for an older game (yes its not that old, but still it looks pretty good). The interface is a bit clunky, but so far no real gripes. Character creation was indepth and really brouhgt me back to those old Pen and Paper games, kudos on that! I liked the dice roll system, you could really tweak if you wanted or do as I did, just hit random till i got a few numbers I liked and used them. My characters are not the "hand picked" numbers most used, I think only one has an 18 base. I think in all my charceters created i reroled maybe 30 total times. I see I could pick and chose where numbers whent also, but I put them in where they rolled, prefect characters is not something I like, seems like a trainer to me when you do that, i want my characters to not hit every time... and hooo boy they whiff like they are blindfolded right now. I am sure it took an hour plus to create them.

The first town was a bit of a disapointement, lots of exploring for no reason. I never liked that in old console games, and not a fan of it in PC ones either. A town with 3 people that give you something to do, and 10 that just talk for no real reason. I know its to make it more imersive, but..eh.. dont care for it. Once I established I needed to get rid of some bandits I was instatly telported to that area.. not to sure about that , but travle and raondom combat while fun at start of a game, it gets tediuos later, so maybe its ok.

Fighitng... The turn based fighting feels good, I like it, and it works well. I feel in control and right at home from my old pen and Paper days. And my one true gripe about random number games rears its head in my first battle. The large toads, they owned my little party, my main tank was inside a toad so quick i thouhgt I blinked and missed it. Thankfully the game auto saved at the begining of the zone. I had forgot I need to save non stop.. im not sure I like that again. Saving every battel just seems ..... wrong.... my skill should carry me, not my ability to hit save. But old RPG's required this, so why not this one. My second attempt went better, I killed 3 frogs and had my caster out of spells and my tanks with low HP's. My camp icon was yellow, so what to do? Save and move ahead, die.. load save, and try again and die.. 5 more times all death... OK time to rest. camp, attacked, camp attacked, save and camp, attacked, save and camp attacked... WTH!!!!! how can i get some spells and Hp's back? My random generator must just be punishing me... save and try 10 more times, each time my camp is disrupted and cant get any spell or HP back... so I press ahead. The bandits own me, I try this 5-6 time and my tfurstration level is maxed.. I start 100% over. Saveing again. Im fighitng and saveing, but again, i can either let my tanks eat it and save spells, or use spells os tanks dont eat so much dmag.. but I CANY GET A CAMP to work... im attacked every time. I have to fight about 6 encounters with no rest and so far I have not succeded. Did i build the wrong party, did I have to just ahve 18's across the board on stats? What Am i doing wrong?

IM taking a break and writing this. I have a Pally ( he hits good when not in frog belly) a monk- this may have been a bad choice she is just cooling mobs off, as she misses about 8 out of 10 swings, just fanning them. My rogue is ok, he is doing more dmag then my monk. My cleric is also doing more dmg than my monk (dex is important for monks still isnt it?) and my sorc is ... well underwhelming.. i know they do 1D4 dmg.. but geez i think i have shot MM about 20 times and had a 1dmg 15 of them...

this random number stuff is killing me, i know there is no other way to do it.. but this game sure seems brutal with it. So far I see why you guys like it, overall other than my suckage at teh start I cant see much wrong with it. I like how it looks, the combat is nice... I just gotta figure out how to beat a few mobs without blowing my wad.

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clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Grotesque Tactics was a bit

Grotesque Tactics was a bit short, but fun none the less, almost like RPG light in a way, but that is diffenlty not the correct term.. its done in a way that fun seems to be more key then tactics, etc.. which isnt bad in the end.

TOEE-several more feble attempts. I just cant get by the massivly boring city quests to level a bit before the dungeons. This has been benched for the moment.

Beyond Dvinity II- enjoying this quite a bit, maybe a slight "hardness" to it to frustrate from time to time but I keep commingback to it. I like the look of the world, the way it plays, and its got oddles of hiddy holes and sneak passages and underground stuff to explore (HUGE HUGE PLUS to me, as exploring is my favorite part of RPG's). I cant play it for hours and hours.. but in 2-4 hour spurts its perfect.

WOW- yes the addiction had died for almost a year. A few weeks of some very unforntant interactions with the lowest people soured me bigtime and I quite for about a year. But I recently have played for a few hours here and there again and am enjoying it.. Scratched up a new Goblin Hunter (yes I am a HUNTARD!, i love the class, even if they keep making it worthless unless you are marksman... PET class where the pet sucks!!!! come on Bliz!!!!)

Two Worlds II- While a very inferior Oblivion Clone, it had its moments. The new one fixes alot, and still easly shows why Oblivion was such a great game and TW is not. Noble effort, one or two more tries and htey will maybe be close. Still somewhat fun.

The Hunted- Played it quite alot, but as it has a DIablo like skill tree I think I tried to Jack of All trades myslef a bit to much and am strugling in the later stages. Otherwise I like it quite a bit, its the type of game Im talior made for, can play in short bursts and Real Time combat, when done so i can get a grip on it is quite fun. One of the best BOW and Arrow attack systems in a game. Other than a coupel HUGE!!!!! (you know the type, go back a few saves and pray it doesnt show up again) bugs its been a pretty good game.

So the old is out right now.. only the new it seems.. but I am having fun, so i guess its all good for now.

clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
THREAD revive Game has

THREAD revive
Game has changed- Might & Magic Mandate of heaven (6)

Matts excellent posts on great and not so great RPG's rekindled my M&M love and I decided as I had played M&M3 in the last year I would go for a next step the 6th in the series. I have not played this since it was new, while not ages ago, i remeber very little of it.

GOG install was flawless and so far it playes perfect on my Win7 machine. Some animations on the option screen are to fast, but all in game stuff is working fine. My first steps in the game was the standard character slection, I used the defualt charracters (pleas hold the boo's from the hardcore RPG guys, I know, I know, character creation is a HUGE part of the game, but with my short attention span nowdays I didnt want to waste any of it on that). Needless to say now that I have played a bit.. Why didnt i do it.. its much more fun to attach yourslelf to avatars you create. The upside, so far the dfualt charactes seem to be holding thier own. As I entered the game I will admit its a bit blockly, but overall its held up fairly well and teh Graphics so far have not detracted from my gameplay. I do remeber the first town, but i have ot wander a bit to learn all the people and find all the quests (almost!). I remebere how some places are not open during the night, mixed feelings on this.. really the only thing it does is make you hit rest and the "wait" button.. does this add to the game? OF COURSE m&m games have days and your characters actually age (well they did, not sure here) so in the end all that waiting my bite me in the butt in the end?... While it might have been quite neat back then, today it seems to just be extra button pushs. Thankfully its quite painless so it really a small thing. I'm, sure many will not midn it at all, i really dont, but on a pure game design side, I'm just not sure it adds to the game.
the next thing I did was enter combat as a FPS guy... and die, and die and die again.. Space was not slowing combat down.. Frustration was starting to creep in. Was I going to give up again? NO! i read the manual (GOG makes this easy) and see its ENTER!!! this made combat much more pleasing and a few levels where gained. I was enjoying this. I cleaned up the island and entered one of the two dungeons I could find. I died. I tried again, and died.. I must not have the levels I need. So i head off to other dungeon and its locked. I scour the area around it, no levers no keys and no way in. What am i missing? repeat a talk to all townsfolk.. wait a sec Town hall is only open 9 till 3.. .(how realistic is that! :) ) quest in there and a KEY!!!!! i clean out that dungeon, my guys level several times and I find i have a crapload of loot that I have no idea what it is. it sells for peanuts and the guy wants massive prices to tell me what it is.. most of the time you spend more on figureing out what it is than its worth.. to dang much like real life :) I need somebody who can tell me what this junk is. Spending skill points on this skill (identify) is worrysome as i hate to start getting into that Jack of all trades master of none character thing I tend to do to often. I equip my guys with new found loot and buy a few new spells.. dang no "uber kill all" spells yet! gotta work with " midly hard slap" spells .. guess we are just starting :) it seems I have little to work with spell wise.. Bless which has always been a M&M standby.. wait a sec, i gotta cast on ecah person and it lasts an hour (5-10 minutes game time).. my clerics mana is half gone.. I do notice it helps, so while a bit repatiative.. rest, recast etc.. i do this. We enter the temple that owned me earlier and the fights are ones I can win. While Im not Conan-ing it up I am managing to win a few battles before i have to run for the door and go outside to rest. I look over at the clock.. i been playing 3 4 hours.. errr... no.. its about 3am and I get up at 6am for work. Time to run one last mission into the temple (yes a smart person goes to bed, but not a RPG'er) i kill a few and retreat to heal.

day one ends.
I am really liking this game, so far its not easy to rember all the stuff i did when I played it the first time so its not deja vue yet. Combat is fun, but I find posion and desiease annoying as right now I can only fix with a visit to temple and that means no in dungeon rest sessions as i dont heal. My biggest gripe so far is the dungeons are large, and when you get deep in , get a effect you cant remove your only real option is a 1-3 minute run out to a temple to heal and a 1-3 minute run back to monsters. And in this game you can do this 10-20 times in hour. the runs are a bit boring... it does make me want to try my dangest to not get posioned.. but so far my ONLY defence is ranged and posion resist spell. yes I can pot shot them from afar as this game let you use the world to geometry to mess with the game.. but taht is NOT the way the game is suposed to be played.. sure monsters that cant cross water.. shoot away.. but hanging them on wolrd geometry is not right. And my posion resist spell only seems to improve my resists slighlty, isntead of posion on the first or second attack, now they get it on the 3rd or 4th.. and when you have 20 cobras.. its almost not worth it. As after the battle no matter what you will be running back to temple for the cure. And last gripe.. my tank (knight) is the all or nothing King.. he misses non stop.. my mage and cleric hit stuff more often.. but when he hits he hits hard.. now it would seem to make more sence that he hit more often, just for less damage. In my mind the wizard hitting with his dagger 3 out of 4 attacks and my Knight hitting once of four just seems wrong.. I dont need him killing on every shot, just hitting a bit. I stacked his stats on swords hoping it would hit better ( and his agility is good too).. but so far he is just cooling the monsters down.. wiff wiff wiff BANG your dead...

So far .. my gripes are small so please dont think i think its a big deal.. so far its been a great juant back into the past.

clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
day 2- I am still working on

day 2-

I am still working on my 2nd dungeon, its along run back and forth for heals for posioned charcaters. This game mechanic is wearing on me a bit. Not enough ot make me quit, but I'm questioning who thought this was a good idea when designed. I am assuming later in the game when you can cure posion (they better have this spell) this part will be the one that reminds you why that spell is a MUST BUY. i think I made 50 trips back and forth, each battle with spiders or snakes has produces a party member that has posion. otherwise its still quite fun. A few more levels and many more battles and Im still enjoying it. I cant report much as i spent 3-4 hours simply fighting, nothing new to see, no othe quirks, just plain old fun bloodshed.

clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
day 3-4-5-6 etc.. I am still

day 3-4-5-6 etc..

I am still playing and yes, even enjoying this game. Unless some incredible insight happens I will not keep boring anybody who reads this with my lengthy gameplay posts. I still have some thoughts on where gaming was and is relateing to it.

M&M6 was the end of the great RPG years, rpg's where falling out of favor and RPG makers where trying new tricks. this M&M is like the first baby steps into realtime full 3D. Combat is really Oldschool, if you puase and issue orders, very much like the M&M before it (3-4-5 (err swords is 5?) but the realtime can somewaht be like the FPS crowd would think. you can use ground cover, you can use trees and rocks, you can play it like a FPS if you are nible enough. Personally the 3D for movment and turen based for combat is my way of playing it and I think it works fairly well. Right now i think I have maybe 20+ hours in and as i remeber how large the game is vaugely i have a LONG ways to go.

WOW this game is HUGE compared to the games of today. The last few RPG's i have played have been 20-30 hours.. Im in the 2nd map area of about 10 and IM not half done with it and I'm already at 20+ hours.. this game should easily last 100 hours if not more. Of course one has to discount the fact that alot of those hours are running back and forth to town for heals/leveling/selling etc...

Games were just huge back in the old days, yes, alot of redundent running but back then that was normal. We dont much care for it now. In this game towns are close so it not a long trek, just a bit boring after doing it 100 times. The dungeons take hours to complete not minutes.

I dont honeslty think this game could stand up today, As in: All graphics current gen, interface update, it is failry simple, but .. deep enough to hold my interest but thre is not enough "bling" so to speak. In 20 hours or so of play i have encounterd about 10 differnt monsters (nowdays you have 10 differnte one in the first dungeon ) This is not a big deal.. But.. the loot os far is a bit boring.. I have looted the same club, sword and chainmail for the umpteenth time.. I understand this is a balance issue and they use stats to build your character, not equipment. it does make the special stuff alot more exciting and does add to the "who gets this" its not as clear cut as it would seem. Your tank needs most any resist gear, hit gear, heck most anything to improve him.. but those fragile casters benafit too.. its really not simple to decide. One thing new games have lost.. most often there is enough armour and weapons you just put them on willy nilly and nver thing about it to much.. new stuff is just around the corner. In this game I'm putting alot of thought into it ( and swapping it around sometimes for best effect). But it would be nice to see a bit more "awsome" items as i have lceared avout 5 dungeons and my people are still using the same equipment i found in the first one.

In the end, I am still finding this game quite playable for an Older RPG and "IF" you are a fan but cant quite stomach the really olds school stuff, this might be a good place to test the waters. it has an interface that is simple, yet crude, but not annoying (other than the fact it cane be remapped). The graphics are dated, simpley stated they are OLD, but again, they are more then decent enough. The game is HUGE so you wont finish it in a few days, its a nice trip to the past.

Shawn Delahunty
Shawn Delahunty's picture
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Joined: 08/01/2011
Thanks for sparking my interest

Hi Clok,

I enjoyed reading your descriptions of the game re-play, and appreciate the time you've taken to write them up. I played partway through a friend's old copy of M&M-3 back in the early 90's, and enjoyed it well enough. After reading Matt Barton's book though, I believe that the better games in the series came LATER. I'm going to have to check out the multi-game bundle on GoG.

One point you raised is a great nitpick I have with modern games; the gameplay times are just too darn short. Your absolutely right though, in that the older games had a tad too much _walking_ in them, which added pointless hours to the things. I get frustrated when newer games try to bulk up their play length by adding irritating things like "grinding". Somewhere in the middle has to be a happy medium.

How do you think the loot finding could be improved, to make it interesting, but still keep the "careful strategic balance" part of deciding who in the party gets a particular special item? Are there other older games that you think did it better? Would it be a mix of methods?

Thanks,

n/a
clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
meduim
bitsweep wrote:

Hi Clok,

How do you think the loot finding could be improved, to make it interesting, but still keep the "careful strategic balance" part of deciding who in the party gets a particular special item? Are there other older games that you think did it better? Would it be a mix of methods?

Thanks,

ah call me out, that is the question, and like youm ntioned on game length, that happy medium, we all talk about it, but achiveing it is not as simple. Chests are the 9as they should be) the real TREASURE of this game, they are not supre rare, but they are set in the middle of lots of monsters, or in hidden spots. They alwasy conation somthing good, money, items, they are a big part of the "reward" system in this game. You see a chest you want to get inside of it. Where I started to feel let down was the fact i have maybe opened 10-15 chests 20 hours in and they are the main source of equipmetn for your characters. Monsters randomly drop it also (and its like chest, a rare enough thing you want ot pay attention when looting) but its rare enough you really dont depend on it for equipment. Those dand chest.. they almost alwasy contain a weapon or armour. So as you start out with fair amount of cash (it seems like enough to those who are uninformed) so you can equip all your characters at the local amour or weapons shop. The catch is as you level you ahve to buy memberships to guilds, spells and training offr your levels. So if you blow your cash on equipmetn right away, you will be short someplace. best to use what you ahve and "hope" to loot. Which brings us back to our chests. The first few will ahve maybe 2 weapons and a piece of armour. So after 3-4 you will ahve your party in upgrades from the starter equipment. maybe not waht you want them in, but they are ready to tackle some stuff and you feel they are "ok" for now. YOur thouhgts are better stuff for each class will show up. But as you open 5-6 more and get the same exact CLUBS/ LEATHER/ SHIELD or DAGGERS you start to wish for maybe a new pair of boots! a +1 dagger.. Now dont get me wrong, 15 chests, there where 3 or possilby 4 'special" items. And maybe.. with a party of 4 that should be enough. But after games Like diablo, borderlands, heck even WOW cool loot drops alot, the thing that keeps you from decking out is class.

So the fix? maybe a tiny bit more "special" loot. How much? I wish i could answer, it does appear from my playing its 1 in 4 chests. maybe that rally is enough and IM just conditioned to want more. Maybe the monsters should drop a bit more? Maybe its not so much "special" but lack of veriaty. I know I looted the same basic club 10+ times. The easy fix that would have satisfied me was not so much "better" loot, but instad of 1 club, have 6 different looking ones (stats, ehh, they could be the same). For me its discovery, Wood club, cool. Wood club with spike, wood club with bone domes, wood club with zig zag edge.. at least its a visual discovery even if its not a better club.

its such a fine line, to much and the Special is gone, to little and I feel like im grinding for no reason. If that chest cant promise me a possible upgrade its far less a draw. that is what it bloils down to. the First 5 chests I opened all had me wondering what was in them. the next 5 whre not as exciting, i still hoped, but was pretty sure I knew what was in them. The last 5 i opened I no longer wondered, i knew at least 2 had Wood Clubs, one had leather.. I opned them not becuase I wanted the loot to wear, i knew I would be selling it all as there where no upgrades. Of course 1 of those chests did have a "special" im sure.. but the anticipation was gone. that is where differnt graphics come in.. at least I will be interested in looking in those chests and wont deminish the value of the SPECIALS. Of course some people wont be happy with just visual differences.

So the answer? its the happy medium thing, but we all dont see happy medium the same.

Matt Barton
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Joined: 01/16/2006
M&M 6 is the best of 6-8. I

M&M 6 is the best of 6-8. I never bothered with 9 since it was so terrible.

But just wait, Clok--try to get the flight spell ASAP. As soon as you get it, the game becomes much, much more fun.

n/a

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