Old PC gamers now on Consoles

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clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009

I was going to post this in Bills console gameing guide but Figured i was somewaht a thread derail (not that to many care about that here, but I think that thread is a great read for people deciding and didnt want to much it up to much).

I used to play my nes/gen.SNES/3DO/PSone/Dreamcast... alot.. the Dreamcast was the last system I used alot (console). My PC has always been my gameing platform of choice. I prefere keyboard and mouse input and PC gaming has done its best to use that system. Even Space Flight sims have gotten good at mouse keyboard combo's (Dark star Plays fantastic).

I think the reason I have resisted consoles is simply the comfort level of the gamepad. As games have evolved from the simpler platformers and beat um ups the control schemes have gotton to be so complex. I first noticed this on the Dreamcast with the NFL football game (man was that game awsome looking or what?) After playing so many football (madden) games on the older consoles haveing so many buttons was just frustrating me. I DO stil think SPORTS games play the best on Consoles.. I think they are overloading us with button combo's and options. I have said it in several threads (and exagerated point) the hold 2 buttons and the L1 sholder pad to do XXX is just way to much... I know several games on the 360 that require you to keep the thumb on both thumbsticks, and Im also suposed to puch a button to do something? how?! my right thumb is also my button pushing thumb.. I have noticed this in FPS alot. Left thumb is movement, right thumb is AIM and a button throws a grenade? how? I can "possibly" be stationary to throw (never good to be a standing target, but lets say I am not moving) how do I move the left thumb to that right stick to aim so my right thumb can push the button? I cant really twist a finger down fromt he shoulder buttons to hit it.. Im sure its possilbe.. but not easy or natural.
Other games do this too.. many of them. This is my singel biggest gripe with consoles.

the games all look great, in fact they should. The fantastic looking games always used to come form cutting edge PC games, and great games wher always ported to consoles.. Now consoles have came far enough, they can do what most PC can. I really wont argue that point.. its the PC who is behind now (becuase of price and number of purchases). But I still say the gamepad limits them in some ways. Even good players must have some difficulty with the problem i listed above. Sure we all adapt, but its not the correct way to design games. I love haveing lots of options, but not if I cant use them effectivly.

I look at HALO (not a fan) it was easily the game that change the face of console FPS.. and nowdays FPS account for easily half of all console games (probebly closer to 75%). I played it on the Xbox, badly. I played it on the PC and had no problem. That is all a control issue and is limited to the people (person) playing.. me I was a PC user (especialy FPS) so gamepads where totally foreign to me. But we take the person who never played on a PC and they start with a gamepad it may seem natural.. but even then as I mentioned above.. how do you do the control 2 sticks and push a face button (not shoulder?).

I ask you EX PC players (hehe we are never EX).. if you where ever good with FPS on the PC, are you as good on the console? Was it just a matter of time, playing and the controler became second nature?.. I know I have played several 360/Ps3 games (FPS) and I am improving.. but I just can never see the gamepad being as good as the mouse.. and to me that means I will never play that game as well (or as fun) on the console as the PC... and game that require shooting require me to aim, quickly and preciese. WIll I ver feel as natural with a gamepad as a mouse/keyboard? I really cant see it happening. Im just a product of that generation. The kids (and adults) who start with a gamepad may be the exact opposite.. the mouse will never be "right" to them.

other games I can clearly see the Console being better, like i say a keyboard is never going to feel right to a gamepade for games like Mario. But those games are getting fewer and fewer. I know the FPS could fall out of favor and a differnt gamestyle could come in (and will most likley in the future). but right now FPS are king.

I guess that is what Im trying to say. I will never be as "good" with a gamepad as a keyboard mouse so I will always feel Im playing at a disadvantage. Hence I will always feel more in control and think im a bettter player on a PC. I know I have tried to switch. Its like coffee, everybody drinks it, its all over.. may as well join um. But I cant its horrible tasteing to me. I know most everybody esle likes it, but I just cant get a taste for it, its easy, its everywhere, but its not good to me. Beer is same way, never got a taste for it, but tis cheep, its alwasy on tap, its easy to open a can.. mixed drinks are all harder.. (horrible comaprasion for a gaming site, sorry).

I know some PC games are hard to install and have issues, I have been lucky as I really ahvent run into any problems in several years (except with SPORE). but Im still in the If its not worth working for, its not worth having anyways camp.

Sorry alot of rambling with no real point, I'm just wondering if you guys that did alot of PC gaming are really feeling comfortble with Gamepads? how long did it take? I know ihave a couple hundred hours on my 360, but still feel so out of place with a gamepad.

I was at BestBuy the other day.. one joystikc/gamepad for PC's.. I remeber when I used to look at 10+ Siatech, wheels, etc.. now there is one generic gamepad, they dont evne have the PC 360 gampad in that area. I alos looked at the game section. its about 70% casule games.. $4.99 bejeweled and the like.

Nathaniel Tolbert
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One of the things that most

One of the things that most people seem to forget about old computers was that if you were a gamer, you had a joystick of some sort. You had to for a lot of games. They just worked better. Now days, with the saturation of games types such as RTS and FPS which rely heavily on keyboard and mouse controls, people forget that even now, some games made for the computer just work better with a joystick. Try flying a WWII Fighter with the Keyboard and Mouse combo. I did, I got shot down in about 45 seconds. I use my Saitek ST290 Pro and I can fly okay. The thing is Consoles weren't the only ones that had gamepads and joysticks. Today should be no different. Also the amazing different types of controllers you can have for a computer should make it more capable you think for different types of games, but it doesn't seem to hold true does it?

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ironmaidenrule
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Joined: 12/02/2010
Developers

I think it all comes down to what control system the developer made the game for. When FPS were first ported from PC's on the consoles, to control scheme was often illogical and fiddly, for example Quake 2 on the PSX, left analogue stick moved the player and the R1+R2 aim up and down respectively. Obviously modern sports games are designed for console controllers, so porting this control method over to a PC would be horrible, who nowadays would try and play Fifa 11 with a keyboard.

Bill Loguidice
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Trackballs
Matt Barton wrote:

The keyboard and mouse is a problem only in that so many console owners have the couch mentality. You need a surface to put the keyboard and mouse on. Seems like the best they could do would be a gamepad with at least one thumb-controlled trackball. Does such a thing exist?

Some used to have trackballs, but it never caught on. Trackballs themselves have become passe and I've always preferred them to a regular mouse for non-gaming activities. I still use Logitech/Microsoft thumb-based trackballs extensively when working (don't like the finger tip ones). I only have a mouse on my home desktop because I couldn't find a modern wireless trackball solution and I use a gaming mouse on my laptop.

For my arcade machine in the basement, I have a wireless keyboard/trackball combo. It works well enough for what it's intended for.

Even the OnLive console that I'm getting gives you a standard gamepad. You're on your own when a game requires a keyboard or mouse.

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Matt Barton
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The keyboard and mouse is a

The keyboard and mouse is a problem only in that so many console owners have the couch mentality. You need a surface to put the keyboard and mouse on. Seems like the best they could do would be a gamepad with at least one thumb-controlled trackball. Does such a thing exist?

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Mark Vergeer
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Doom -> Quake -> Halflife -> Halo

With Wolfenstein and Doom it was keyboard only for me. With Quake and The like the mouse came into play a but more. Half-life definitely was a mouse and keyboard game for me and Halo made me transition to the gamepad for FPS games.

I don't mind the gamepad as it works pretty well but in games like Battlefield the gamepad still feels slightly off to me as positioning of the crosshairs is just totally different from the absolute positioning the mouse gives you.

Great posts guys!

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clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
But how far do you go in

But how far do you go in "optimizing"? Halo has some aim assist (ok, I say it has ALOT of aim assist). many "gamepad" user say mouse/keyboards click and shoot, its "easier". I never did see the difference that way. Both require skill to aim well. basicly they are different ways to the same end (i know afriend who uses consoles only sucked at L4D with teh mouse, so its not so 'easy"). I know some PC games have aim assist too. it was failry uncommon in the past, but its showing up more and more as games are devolped on consols and ported to PC's. I also think its becuase more people are using gamepads on PC's. I know in several thread ons FPS in the steam forums many people complain about games they cant use a gamepad on.

I have watched gampad users that every bit as good as me (better) with a gampead then I am with a mouse. I have watched handicapped people play with their face on oddball custom controls that are better then me. It really does boil down to use/skill/ and adapting to what you use.

I used to be firmly in the Mouse/keyboard is clearly the "best" way to control a FPS. My thinking on that is no longer the same. Its the best way for me, but not everybody else.

Now the AIM assist stuff, Im no fan of that. I have noticed it can make some games frustrating. I have LOS yet the "assist" want to shoot lower than I want it too as its "trying" to hit perfectly center, Im using cover and need to expose myslef more becuase Im shooting at a 3 foot circle, but the assit aim want dead center so my shots are clipping my cover.

Im not sure my frustration level with gamepads will ever go away. I am hopeing it will decrease. I must admit IM SO CLOSE to hacking a keyboard mouse combo for my 360 just so the one thing holding me back from playing many of those games (gamepad) is eliminated. I wonder if MS is missing a segment of the PC gamers who dont like gamepads by not allowing it? I do know one of the reasons is the keyboard/mouse vs gamepad argument.. real or imagined, MS doenst want ot open that can of worms.

Bill Loguidice
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Joined: 12/31/1969
I think the bottom line

I think the bottom line Carmine is that as long as the game is optimized for the control method in question, it should be irrelevant whether it's mouse/keyboard or gamepad.

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Carmine
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Joined: 09/05/2010
It's simply easier to aim

It's simply easier to aim with the mouse and keyboard combination. If you could somehow measure how quickly your average Counter-Strike player aimed and fired a head shot and compare it to how long it takes your average Killzone 2 player did the same I think the difference would be quite significant. Now Halo on the other hand has quite a bit of aim assist, so it would be a lot closer, but still I'm fairly certain humans are just more effective with the keyboard and mouse unless they've been trained otherwise for a long time.

However I don't think it matters all that much. I've played both Halo and Counter-Strike competitively and I actually enjoy the gamepad style more because it's more of a challenge. The K/M combination feels like it levels the playing field somewhat. If you play for long enough you could eventually be among the best, whereas with the dual analog system on the consoles if you aren't naturally accurate with the thing you'll never be great at the game no matter how much you play. That must be my competitive spirit talking : /

I could be waaaaaay off on this, but that's how it seems to be from my point of view. Nothing wrong with loving the keyboard and mouse, it's awesome, but don't miss out on some of the great console only fps games!

clok1966
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Joined: 01/21/2009
well that is one of the

well that is one of the answers I was looking for. it gets easier with time. i do agree its not broke.. its just seems that way to ME :) I know hen DOOM forst came out, it was all keyboard. KEYBOARD TURNER! was a put down when mice where thrown into the mix.. keyboards turn at the same rate (as did gamepads, the new stuff is varible). I hated Mice/keyboard when i first started with it. I guess the gamepad is the same.
IM going to have to adapt! or be left behind :)

Bill Loguidice
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I just think it's a matter of

I just think it's a matter of adapting. The control scheme can't be broken for tens of millions of gamers--it's up to the individual to adapt to the unfamiliar. Like I've said before, I NEVER got into mouse/keyboard for FPS, so games like GoldenEye on the N64 or Halo on the Xbox felt right and natural on those platform's controllers. I played Wolfenstein 3D, Blake Stone and Doom with a Gravis gamepad on the PC! In fact, I have the opposite issue of you--I'm struggling with mouse and keyboard now that I'm back into PC gaming! (though I think my OnLive console will keep me from becoming truly proficient, ironically).

I have various USB controllers for the PC. I even have the adapter to use a wireless Xbox 360 controller on my PC (it also works on the OnLive console apparently), which is just about the closest thing to a gamepad standard the PC has. I think that's the PC's biggest failing as a games system--no truly standardized form of control. It's also a great advantage though in that usually control is highly configurable and there are tons of options out there.

Like I've also said before, it took me a LONG time to adapt to gamepads coming from a joystick. I also hated when the joystick (or gamepad) was on the left side (the preferred Japanese way) rather than the right. The biggest challenge for me was using my left hand for control and my right hand for buttons. Luckily now though I can move between most forms of control fairly easily, so I'd definitely say it's just best to stick with it and it will work out.

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