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Baldur's Gate: Slogging, Life, and finding the HOLY GRAIL of Videogaming!
Although a previous post in another thread made it sound like I hated "Baldur's Gate," let me make this clear: Baldur's Gate is a GREAT game! It just took a lot of time for me to realize it. In fact, it achieved the HOLY GRAIL of what I seek in a game: it gave me a NEW gaming experience! I had to make a TERRIFYING choice, and it felt REAL! I can't recall ever feeling that in a game before, and it was exhilarating! This is role playing!
I don't like to get too personal in these forums, but bieng the first real game I've played in months, "Baldur's Gate" initially had me questioning whether I like to play "deep," solitary games anymore. In the beginning, "Baldur's Gate" was rough going. Instead of "rescue the princess," "kill the evil wizard," or "save the world," the plot seemed to be basically... an iron shortage. Ho hum. So there I was, slogging around the map, getting massacred in every battle, not knowing what I was supposed to be doing or where I was supposed to be going, not feeling any excitement or joy.
"This is supposed to be a great game, and I'm not enjoying it," I thought to myself. "I don't have time for this, I've got other things to do. Am I even a gamer anymore? Perhaps there's a point where you're too old to enjoy videogames?'"
Seriously, these sad (and stupid) thoughts haunted me in the beginning as I played the game. But I refused to give in, thanks to my participation in "Armchair Arcade." Although I don't know Matt Barton personally, what I've gathered about him through his writings is that he's not some nerd who derives pleasure just from "bean counting." "Hey, my elf got a +2 battle axe and a 'charm monster' scroll! Woo hoo, this is a great game!" I need more than that, and so (I assume) does Mr. Barton, and he highly recommended the "Baldur's Gate" series. I needed plot, I needed a sense of adventure, I needed to "role play." That's what RPG's are supposed to be all about!
So I slogged on and thought to myself, "There's something to this game that I'm not getting yet. There's got to be! I'm not giving up! Matt wouldn't let me down!"
....And he didn't!!! Slowly but surely, I began to understand the fairly deep battle system and win battles, became immersed in the fantasy, and became attached to the members of my party, who up until that point were mere "icons." Even the "ho hum" iron shortage plot became an intriguing mystery. What started out as a life-questioning slog started to become a gaming addiction!
It all came to an emotional head as my party arrived in the town of Nashkel. These are good people who inhabit the town, and now they're starving, they're dying in the mines to provide for their families, their children are now fatherless, and the outlook of the people is bleak and hopeless. I really felt real sorrow and compassion for them; I felt their pain! And the rumors and mysteries were starting to add up - of monsters, insanity, and DEMONS! What's going on in the Nashkel Mines? What's behind the "cursed iron" mystery?
The misery of the Nashkel people made it clear that I had to do something about it. I had to save them. But was I ready? My party is still relatively weak, and may not be able to handle what's down there in the mines. Should I slog across the countryside and "level up" my party before taking on the Nashkel Mines? Considering the fact that some of the countryside monsters are too dangerous for my level-2 party to tackle, how dangerous are the monsters in the mines?
The Nashkel people were suffering, and I could feel it. Therefore, I had to make a TERRIFYING choice: do I take my weak, ill-equipped party into mines now? Considering the danger (and only four save-game slots), it's a good bet that some members of my party are going to DIE in the mines and be lost forever, and I've become quite attached to them. What would "Paladin Rob" do?
I made my choice: the people of Nashkel are suffering; WE'RE GOING INTO THE MINES! Not for gold, experience points, or +2 battle axes, but because it seemed like the right thing to do!
Never before do I recall making a decision in a videogame that felt so personal, so REAL! I finally began to see the beauty of a good CRPG, particularly "Baldur's Gate!" Did I make the right choice? Those of you who've already completed the game know the answer already, but I don't! (Please don't tell me! Let me find out for myself!)
So, "Paladin Rob" and his rag-tag, weak, ill-equipped companions are hurling themselves into the abyss to take on DEMONS and save the people of Nashkel! NOW THAT'S ADVENTURE!!! THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! THAT'S WHY I PLAY VIDEO GAMES!
So, "Rowdy Rob" is still a videogamer. :-) Not only that, he's now a certified CRPG enthusiast!
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Comments
Big eyes
Also, I think I finally understand the objection some CRPG'ers have to Japanese RPGs. If I am "role playing," why would I want to "role play" a baby-faced cartoon character whose party consists of "Hello Kitty!" rejects?
Yeah I agree. It didn't seem to be a problem when I was younger, but as I inch towards 30 I get more and more self-conscious about the fact that I am leading a crew of 13 year olds through some generic fire dungeon. It might have something to do with the fact that I now live with my girlfriend, who is inclined to viciously mock cutesy characters with giant anime eyes (and me, by association).
Of course, there was the one time I got her stoned and told her a lengthy story about best friends, betrayal and flying airships. It was, of course, the entire plot of Final Fantasy 2 (or 4... WHATEVER PURISTS). The next night I told her the plot of Final Fantasy 3/6, then 7, then X. She got all excited when I eventually told her that these were games, but when I booted up Final Fantasy 3 to show her what the big deal was she lost interest inside of 30 seconds. Not cinematic enough, I suppose. That's the problem: most of the greatest stories are locked up inside dated graphics and archaic hardware, and to a non-gamer the whole obsession must be pretty whimsical.
Anyway, my original point (I think) was that I tried to get through the intro of Yggdra Union (PSP) and after five minutes of staring at SUPER-HUGE EYES and reading some uninteresting text, I was done. That wasn't role-playing.
MMORPGs always remind me of
MMORPGs always remind me of chatrooms with a Diablo minigame attached to them. I really tried to like Ultima Online back in the day, but I eventually shelved it and the concept and haven't bothered to return.
Glad to see the OP understanding how older RPG's work, and also the greater amounts of options available in these older games. You shouldn't have any trouble continuing your travels into the old school RPG's now ;)
Sometimes I liken it to the difference between a movie and a book. The movie will dispense passive entertainment, filling in all the blanks while only giving a small amount of the story (It is only on average two hours after all...). A book on the other hand, forces you to imagine the whole thing in your head, and makes you create the scenes yourself as well as the actual "look" of each character. My Bilbo Baggins would look different to your Bilbo Baggins (before the movies anyway...) for example.
I also agree with the general sentiment on JRPG's. They just aren't my cup of tea.
I think you have a good
I think you have a good point about the characters in the games. In too many games, the characters don't feel real in the least. They are obviously just there to serve some purpose or other, and the "story" has little, if any, bearing on the actual gameplay. In any case, you seldom feel any emotional connection to the characters in a game the same way you might in a movie or novel.
That said, there are a few games that spring to mind who did have, if not realistic, at least characters you could relate to. I think, of course, of the infamous death of Floyd, the great drama of The Dig, the tragic villain of Myth III: Exile, and most recently, Mass Effect. Most of these are adventure games, recently, and I can't help but mention Gabriel Knight II as perhaps the pinnacle of great characters and drama in a game, though Dreamfall (The Longest Journey 2) comes close.
There have been plenty of notable characters in RPGs as well, of course, especially with the Ultima series and the JRPGs. I agree that the cute elements ruin most JRPGs, but if you can somehow see past it, there are still some great moments. Chrono Trigger is the first JRPG that really clicked for me. As much as I try to like the Final Fantasy games, the rampant repetition and banality of the random combats eventually just wears me out. I have Final Fantasy IV on my DS and have yet to finish the damn thing; I feel like I should, but god damn, that thing gets frustrating--more like work than fun. I've been very curious about the Kingdom Hearts games, just because they seem to improbable.
Arguably, nothing can top real D&D with a group of good friends. I got precious little chance to enjoy that, though I have been invited a few times to a local St Cloud group (I should really check it out!). It was easy to adapt the number-crunching elements for computers, but that rich social interaction has been a long time coming--and the MMORPGs don't seem to be comparable, either (instead of being like a group of good buds, it's like being in a mob of idiots).
The classic question of why WRPG over JRPG
Also, I think I finally understand the objection some CRPG'ers have to Japanese RPGs. If I am "role playing," why would I want to "role play" a baby-faced cartoon character whose party consists of "Hello Kitty!" rejects? That's not me, I'm "Paladin Rob," the rough-and-tough, battle-scarred, righteous hero of the land! I am not "cutesy!" Before "Baldur's Gate," my attitude was "what difference does it make what the graphics style is... is the game fun?" I saw it as videogaming, and not "role playing."
Well said. I believe that is a big part of the objection I have with Japanese RPGs. I kind of grew up on pen and paper D&D and Westernized fantasy, even though I was a huge fan of things like Star Blazers. The whole Japanime thing really hadn't taken over in my formative years, so the Western style was very much in vogue. To top it off, the first computer RPG I played all the way through mirrored D&D closely, SSI's Phantasie, which again was critical in shaping my percpetions. To me, RPG's are about carefully crafting your own character and forging your own path, not playing as some well established character in a story that feels canned.
Vintage Games book!
Xbox 360: billlog | Wii: 1345 2773 2048 1586 | PS3: ArmchairArcade
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director | Armchair Arcade, Inc.
Role Playing 'Game' vs. Role Playing 'Program'
Clemenstation, I think your post hits the nail on the head on why "Baldur's Gate" has connected with me. BG has also clued me in as to why these CRPGs have a devoted following. Before BG, I had no idea these types of feelings could be evoked through a videogame. Perhaps it's because I'm not as imaginative as I thought; I wasn't "Griff the Magic User" in a CRPG any more than I was "Mario" in Donkey Kong.
Although I've played a fair share of CRPGs (Ultima II, Temple of Apshai, Nethack, Diablo, Divine Divinity, Throne of Darkness, Dungeon Siege, Neverwinter Nights, and probably a few more I can't recall), none of these games really "clicked" with me in the same way that "Baldur's Gate" has. The satisfaction I got out of the aforementioned games was not much different than completing levels in any other arcade-style game. None of these games took me into the depths of my own imagination and made me "feel" the game through the character's perspective.
I think I now understand that only a special breed of videogame player will really appreciate these "hardcore" CRPGs, which is why I said (in a previous thread) that these types of games are "dead and buried," at least on a commercial level. Today's games hand everything to you on a silver platter: realistic graphics, awesome voice and sound FX, "you are there" controls, etc. "Imagination need not apply, 'we'll' supply the reality for you." Time and effort is demanded of the gamer, but not the gamer's imagination. And that's how gamers want it!
Clemenstation, you did exactly what I finally learned to do... fill in the "blanks" with your own imagination. That's what I haven't done in all these years, which is why I was never a "hardcore" CRPG'er. I saw an "interface" with comparatively-clunky graphics and nerdy stats.... I wanted some ACTION! I wanted "COOL!"
In my mind, "Baldur's Gate" the PROGRAM and "Baldur's Gate" the GAME are two separate things. "Baldur's Gate - the PROGRAM," by today's standards, is actually a bit clunky. But somehow, because it was well put together, I finally "surrendered" and was able to "fill in the blanks" with my mind. That's where the "role playing" started to kick in. And that's where I finally saw beyond the pixels and started "feeling" the GAME, and not the PROGRAM. Like I said, it takes a level of imagination to do this, and I didn't know I had it in me. Actually, I DIDN'T KNOW that I didn't know I had it in me! (does that make sense???).
Also, I think I finally understand the objection some CRPG'ers have to Japanese RPGs. If I am "role playing," why would I want to "role play" a baby-faced cartoon character whose party consists of "Hello Kitty!" rejects? That's not me, I'm "Paladin Rob," the rough-and-tough, battle-scarred, righteous hero of the land! I am not "cutesy!" Before "Baldur's Gate," my attitude was "what difference does it make what the graphics style is... is the game fun?" I saw it as videogaming, and not "role playing."
Ok, I could go on and on, but I gotta get back to the Nashkel mines..... :-)
Boo!
The thing that I very much enjoyed about BG was the way that the technical glitches worked themselves into the role-playing somehow. The pathfinding was just awful, and for some reason Minsc would often decide that the best way to any given point was to truck through uncharted territory, setting off traps and training monsters after him. Usually I would micromanage and bring him back, but with BG I just let him go - curiously. He would eventually arrive at the rest of the group with some sort of cheery comment about his hamster, and the rest of my party would set to work killing off the horde he had brought along. Once he found a badass crew of ghouls that destroyed us all. In any other game this would infuriate me: in BG I just chalked it up to Minsc's sub-10 intelligence. Haven't found many games that possess this particular quality, where (for me) an annoyance is 'just life' rather than something to get frustrated by and hung up on.
I seem to remember being lvl. 4 by the time I hit Nashkel and the mines, but I think my guys decided to spend some time backstabbing bears and wolves in the forest. "Wildlife Management": good for XP.
Action RPGs
Good graphics for its time (especially the water and the animations) but strictly formulaic in its design.
take care,
Calibrator
True, I should have been a bit more specific, but the basic analog is the same. Unlike Diablo, most action RPGs give you more direct control over your character, though still with some of the clickfest aspects of Blizzard's game.
We played Dark Alliance 1 on the Xbox, by the way.
Vintage Games book!
Xbox 360: billlog | Wii: 1345 2773 2048 1586 | PS3: ArmchairArcade
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director | Armchair Arcade, Inc.
"BGDA1"
I played Dark Alliance I on the GameCube and apart from the slightly jerky framerate on this platform the game was an enjoyable, albeit very linear romp through all the classic fantasy settings. Less Diablo, more Dungeon Siege in my opinion.
Good graphics for its time (especially the water and the animations) but strictly formulaic in its design.
take care,
Calibrator
Dark Alliance versus the CRPG games
I believe Mark is referring to the action RPG Baldur's Gate games over the CRPG Baldur's Gate games. In fact, as I mentioned in the other thread, I'm playing through Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance II on my PS3 in PS2 emulation mode with my wife. The only console Baldur's Gates were Dark Alliance I and II, among the best action RPGs (a la Diablo) made in my opinion, and I've played quite a few with the wife. There was a GBA version of the original Dark Alliance.
Vintage Games book!
Xbox 360: billlog | Wii: 1345 2773 2048 1586 | PS3: ArmchairArcade
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director | Armchair Arcade, Inc.
Bg on DS? say what? I
Bg on DS? say what? I haven't seen it anywhere. That sounds very intriguing.
I am currently attempting to get C64 Goldbox games working on the DS through an R4 card. I will get there eventually.
Back on the proper topic; I actually wasn't interested in BG at first either. I thought DnD was dead on the computer after all the abysmal crap that had come before it (AFTER the goldbox games...) and went to the games shop rabidly looking for Fallout 2. I made my purchase and my Girlfriend at the time (Funny eh?) started saying that she wanted BG. I took a look, thought it might impress her...so I bought her a copy.
Needless to say I soon started a game of it myself, and have enjoyed it to this day. As for the BG vs BG2 debate, the one thing BG2 falls down a bit with is the lack of open areas like BG1. I loved the many sidequests and adventures available in them.