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Pinball Construction Set - Your Thoughts on the BudgeCo Title
I've been doing some work now on the Pinball Construction Set chapter for the book and would love to hear some of your thoughts on this "software toy" construction set. Bill Budge's title, first published through his own BudgeCo company in 1982, was of course later picked up and published by Electronic Arts (one of their earliest titles that helped put the company on the map), starting in 1983, for Apple II, Apple Macintosh, Atari 8-bit, Coleco Adam (this release is overlooked by nearly every online source, by the way), Commodore 64 and PC. While I'd love to hear about your experiences with Budge's title and titles like it, I'd also like to hear about even some of the more hardcore construction sets or mainstream development tools, like, for instance, Penguin's The Graphics Magician. Every thought and tangent is appreciated. Thanks!
- Bill Loguidice's blog
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Atari programming
Some of it clearly has been done, but I think I still have an opening... Ironically, modern PC's give me an edge I didn't have back then. Developing...
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Atari 8-bits
Which Atari 8-bit to get is always the eternal debate and one that regular pops up on the aforementioned AtariAge forums. While it's impractical for most just from a space standpoint, I made sure to get at least one example from each category, though I do have multiples across the line: Atari 400, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari XEGS and Atari 130XE (I obviously purposely avoided any of the 600 series systems, which have limited memory, though some like to expand the 600XL because of the small case size). Certainly the 1200XL looks the best and has the best keyboard, but has minor compatibility issues that require some workarounds or a BIOS replacement. The XEGS is interesting because you can use it without it's external keyboard as a game console, though it looks the worst and has a spongy keyboard (which can be replaced/upgraded like all the models). There are compatibility issues between the original 400/800 and later XL/XE systems, due to the latter's 64K expectation, though it's easier to make the XL/XE run the few incompatible 400/800 software items with either a translator cartridge or disk (something I made sure to purchase), than it is to get the 400/800 to the right BIOS and memory, particularly since the 800 typically maxes out at 48K using standard means.
With all that said, I too would recommend a 48K Atari 800 because of the aesthetic, build quality and compatibility. I would then choose either the 800XL, XEGS or 130XE (65XE would suffice, it's just as 64K version of the 128K 130XE) so you can run all 64K software. It sounds crazy to have two systems, but I think it's far less hassle for anyone but the truly dedicated to try to have it all with one system (meaning doing various BIOS/memory/internal upgrades). You'd obviously only need the system and the power supply, everything else can be shared freely between the two. Regardless, as was stated, the homebrew community in regards to hardware and solutions to use ROMs and whatever is probably the strongest of any community out there. It's really something else.
Wii: 1345 2773 2048 1586 | PS3: ArmchairArcade
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director | Armchair Arcade, Inc.
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Atari models
I'll let you drewl a little as I do have the Metal Gear games.
*Drooling* 8-)...
Moonsound? I've heard some demos and they are great but I'm not quite in the Z80-age - I'll keep that for my future retro years!
The soon-to-be-released "VSU" with six (as in "6") graphics chips seems to be a bit more interesting, though ;-)
800XL and expand it as you wish. Though it doesn't have 128KB RAM - like the 130XE - it can be expanded to a full MB (not for the feeble minded person). 128KB is very useful as the newer DOS variants load themselves into this memory and establish a Ramdisk there.
There are few programs that use more than 128KB, AFAIK, and no commercial games.
Sadly, the 130XE has a worse keyboard than the XL generation and all other machines are to be avoided, IMHO (either only 16KB RAM, less outputs etc.).
The only other machine I would consider is the original 800 - it can be expanded with modern cartridges to more than the standard 48KB RAM and its keyboard is also good. It has no external parallel port and relies on the serial I/O connector but this is usually no problem - there are even SD-card readers functioning as hard drive replacements now that can load disk images. Some people say it has the best video quality but I can't confirm this. The 800 is much more expensive, though, but it has one advantage: It gives the "original Atari feeling" and it has four joystick ports which all later models lack.
More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_8-bit_family
take care,
Calibrator
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Calibrator, I'll let you
Calibrator,
I'll let you drewl a little as I do have the Metal Gear games. I also have quite a few game cartridges as well as a special FM-sound cartridge. ;-)
On those enhanced graphics modes on the c64 - it is true that they are only good for static pictures. A technique that did expand the c64's screen and was actually used in games was the removal of the c64 screen-borders and using sprites to display graphics inside the borders.
I think I might want to acquire an Atari 8bit machine, this whole thread has made me very curious after the hardware and the similarities with the c64 . Should I go for the good old 800XL or should I go for a later 8-bitter?
Oh and for those Atari Minded folk out there check out this website from Mr Atari (a fellow Dutchman)
http://mr-atari.com/
he does amazing things - software and hardware projects - for the atari 8bit range of home computers.
Editor / Pixelator - Armchair Arcade, Inc.
www.markvergeer.nl
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Atari techniques
The screenshots from the "Opcode" website (which I never heard of until your reference, BTW), look extremely cool! Too bad these programmers will never be justly rewarded financially for their efforts!
Agreed!
OMG!!! That website is awesome, and again, it looks like the technique is very similar to mine! (I think mine has a few more tricks up its sleeve, though.) Considering the Atari had many more colors available (256 vs. 16), I think a fair picture of what I had in mind can be seen. I lost my old code, however, and was already fired up to reproduce it until I read your message.
Thanks to you, I really have to do more research to make sure my technique hasn't been discovered yet before I proceed with my "demo". :-(
Using Player-Missile-Graphics as colored backgrounds is a known and well used Atari technique.
Example: the dashboard in "The Great American Cross-Country Road Race" by Activision (there are more but this is what I remember offhand).
I'm very curious how you'll step up from this!
Sidenote:
Interlaced/page flipped graphics modes are also used on the Atari to increase available colors for each pixel to 256 (with GTIA-equipped machines). It's used in the demo & homebrew scene, at least, and flickers horribly unless you have a 100 (PAL) or 120 Hz (NTSC) CRT (which I didn't have back then). I don't know how they look with an LCD TV-set, though.
You basically have two frame buffers (each 40x192 bytes - one is for the 16 colors, one for the 16 hues) and then you switch the GTIA register for the graphics mode (which decides how the 4-bit data in the frame buffer is interpreted - colors or hues) and the start of the frame buffer (ANTIC display list) in the vertical blanking interrupt.
Very good for static pictures but not for action games (though you can trick a lot here). The downside: The resolution is only 80x192. But this also works in 160x192 mode -- with less colors, though.
take care,
Calibrator
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AtariAge
Thanks to you, I really have to do more research to make sure my technique hasn't been discovered yet before I proceed with my "demo". :-(
Don't get any ideas about leaving for good, but you should probably post your thoughts on the appropriate AtariAge forums. They have very active and talented 8-bit developers on there who would know right away if what you've come up has already been done.
Wii: 1345 2773 2048 1586 | PS3: ArmchairArcade
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director | Armchair Arcade, Inc.
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8-bit GFX pushed to the limits (Bill and Mark)
It's not so much the hardware "possibilities" as the human "possibilities" I'm talking about. Even now, 20+ years later, these systems are being taken to new, expanding heights by homebrew programmers! Imagine if these "homebrew" programmers were around during the heyday of these machines, and had corporate budgets behind them? That's kind of what I saw with MSX back then in comparison to the Colecovision. The Japanese programmers took the Coleco/MSX platform to new heights (at least in my eyes), which would have spurred the Western programmers, which would have further spurred the Eastern programmers, etc.
The screenshots from the "Opcode" website (which I never heard of until your reference, BTW), look extremely cool! Too bad these programmers will never be justly rewarded financially for their efforts!
[....]
I've used this graphics mode with nmi-sprites on top (raster interrupt sprites to be able to display more than 8 sprites at once) to be able to simulate 320x200 pixels with 4 colours per 8x8 pixel attribute cells. Those sprites needed to be single colour/hires sprites in order for it to work. Multicoloured sprites had a horizontal resolution that was half the 320x200 resolution.
Believe it or not, Mark, your technique is very close to the technique I had in mind 20+ years ago that I wanted to introduce to the world on the Atari! Yes, I used "sprites" (or "player/missile graphics" as they were referred to on the Atari) to enhance the colors. #&$*%!!!! I need to do some more research to see if my technique hasn't been already reproduced on the Atari, since the C-64 guys (like you!) have something very similar! Great minds think alike, eh? :-)
OMG!!! That website is awesome, and again, it looks like the technique is very similar to mine! (I think mine has a few more tricks up its sleeve, though.) Considering the Atari had many more colors available (256 vs. 16), I think a fair picture of what I had in mind can be seen. I lost my old code, however, and was already fired up to reproduce it until I read your message.
Thanks to you, I really have to do more research to make sure my technique hasn't been discovered yet before I proceed with my "demo". :-(
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8245
I also have both (but not modified) -- the 8245 has a nice Amiga 500 form factor ;-)
Mine doesn't sit in the attic but in the closet and I occasionally load a few games as it only needs power, video and a joystick connected to it (not even a joystick as the cursor keys often suffice). When I get Metal Gear for cheap (one can dream!) I'll put it next to my Apple IIgs for a longer time...
take care,
Calibrator
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On MSX2
Carlibrator, I have that exact machine and next to a NMS-8245. Both have 'overclock' switched added to switch them to 7Mhz without any problems. They sit in the attack for now :-(
Bill, if we do have plans to visit the US we'll get in touch and see if we can visit. Would be cool to meet your family and definitely cool check out your basement!
Editor / Pixelator - Armchair Arcade, Inc.
www.markvergeer.nl
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Comments
Appropriate Atari 8-bit?
In my opinion, an 800XL would be a decent choice for a casual collector. It's all around a good bet, since it's small (a good point for collectors), has good compatibility, and is pretty much a good "base" platform to run just about everything. The 130XE is also good for the same reasons, but has more built-in RAM (which few, if any, games ever used). The extra memory of the 130XE was great for word processing, but I can't think of anything else I had that took advantage of the extra memory.
The Atari 800 would be good if you're going the "hardware hacker" route, since it has two cartridge ports, 4 joystick ports, and several slots for expansion memory.
I don't think you'll go wrong if you acquire an 800xl, or 130XE. You'll get the basic Atari experience with these machines with minimal fuss or compatibility issues, in my opinion, plus they're rather easy to acquire on Ebay.
To be honest, though, if you didn't grow up with an Atari, you're probably not going to be enthused enough to go the "hardware hacker" route, and thus the original 800 would probably not be suitable for your purposes unless you come across a decked-out system for cheap. Plus, it only came with 48k RAM standard (it actually came with 16k RAM standard when I bought it!!!). It did have the best keyboard, though (the 130XE hardware was cheaper and clunkier, but still acceptable). Just my opinions... I would like to get a 130xe system myself.
P.S. I had an Atari 800, 800xl, and 130xe in my 8-bit years.
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