I would say that with gathering, Keith is absolutely right about exploiting a human need. But does that differ from our basic human need to hunt (hunting and combat being similar in a lot of ways)? I'd say if you try and downplay 'collection' gameplay, downplay it when developers can't seem to make it as interesting as combat.
You said something like, "I really do think there's a difference between the kind of "fun" that comes from collection and fun that comes from solid gameplay involving choices and learning and threats of failure." I can't help but think that when you say 'solid gameplay involving choices and learning and threats of failure' that you are talking about combat. I believe there is just as much incentive to make a gathering game as there is a strategic turn-based combat game. They could both be entertaining.
We've already explored the facets of combat and how that can be applied to games more than anything else. Someday soon it may be imperative for designers to think of non-combat activities, and bringing them up to speed. Both you (Keith) and Matt Barton have talked about trends in the industry that have threatened RPGs because of bad design. I think this should be one of them. With a lot of RPGs focusing too much on combat, there isn't room for any depth in Charisma based, Intelligence based, or Wisdom based activities. You guys probably know your D&D so I'll just say this: how many times has a Charisma based character let you down when you've picked up the 'bluff' skill or even the 'diplomacy' skill? The systems are just so balanced towards combat, that unless you have a particularly good dungeon master, your character that should be able to talk himself out of every situation, is useless!
I want to have a post of my own on this. So I'll save the details. But, I would love to see (for example) a game like Harvest Moon taken to the next level of detail. Farming is fun, and combat is fun - they do exploit basic human desires... but, maybe all addictive games do that. I would never stop playing Tetris because I thought it was exploiting my human desire for making order out of chaos.
Me and Keith sometimes argue about this stuff.
I would say that with gathering, Keith is absolutely right about exploiting a human need. But does that differ from our basic human need to hunt (hunting and combat being similar in a lot of ways)? I'd say if you try and downplay 'collection' gameplay, downplay it when developers can't seem to make it as interesting as combat.
You said something like, "I really do think there's a difference between the kind of "fun" that comes from collection and fun that comes from solid gameplay involving choices and learning and threats of failure." I can't help but think that when you say 'solid gameplay involving choices and learning and threats of failure' that you are talking about combat. I believe there is just as much incentive to make a gathering game as there is a strategic turn-based combat game. They could both be entertaining.
We've already explored the facets of combat and how that can be applied to games more than anything else. Someday soon it may be imperative for designers to think of non-combat activities, and bringing them up to speed. Both you (Keith) and Matt Barton have talked about trends in the industry that have threatened RPGs because of bad design. I think this should be one of them. With a lot of RPGs focusing too much on combat, there isn't room for any depth in Charisma based, Intelligence based, or Wisdom based activities. You guys probably know your D&D so I'll just say this: how many times has a Charisma based character let you down when you've picked up the 'bluff' skill or even the 'diplomacy' skill? The systems are just so balanced towards combat, that unless you have a particularly good dungeon master, your character that should be able to talk himself out of every situation, is useless!
I want to have a post of my own on this. So I'll save the details. But, I would love to see (for example) a game like Harvest Moon taken to the next level of detail. Farming is fun, and combat is fun - they do exploit basic human desires... but, maybe all addictive games do that. I would never stop playing Tetris because I thought it was exploiting my human desire for making order out of chaos.