You see, as I'm often wont to do - whether it's warranted or not - I often inject my personal mantras/life lessons/lessons learned into my discussions on the Web.
Now, since I'm so conscious of it, I try to save it for special occasions for fear of becoming a real (bigger) bore, but in this case I believe it was warranted.
Bill, occasionally it's a pleasure to break from videogame/geek stuff and talk about real things. Far from making you a "bore," it makes you (and all of us) more real. Videogames aren't everything. :-)
Unfortunately, you chose a very tough subject to go off-topic on, since there are many possible landmines that can erupt from this discussion (as witnessed already!). But I enjoy philosophical discussions, and you seem to be spoiling for one here, so heck, why not?
I had issues MUCH like Jamisings growing up, perhaps lesser in some ways, and perhaps worse in some ways! But fortune, gender difference, psychological research and counseling, medical treatment, good friends, and a deep-down feeling that it all wasn't for nothing; that "I ain't going out like that," helped me get over all of that.(Well, maybe not ALL of it, but the battle scars give me character). I will NEVER be 100 percent of what "mentally happy" people that I've met seem to be, but do I want to be? Do I really want a totally pain-free, smiles-all-the-time life? Would I be any good to anyone if I did?
I'm a believer in the old adage "what doesn't kill you can make you stronger." The emphasis is on the word CAN, as sufferings can also beat someone down into hopelessness and timidity.
Let me say that the subject "should teenagers ever get plastic surgery?" is an ethical/philosophical argument that can be separated from the "self esteem" issue you have brought up. I agree with you in the "fight back, make yourself all you can be" approach to EARNING your self esteem, rather than having someone patronize you into feeling better. But I also feel that plastic surgery is an option for deformative conditions that cannot be fixed through exercise or general medical treatment. In the teenage years, where much of "who you are" is forming, imagine having all kinds of physical deformity issues! Correct them if you can in these youths, I say, if there's no other viable alternatives. Would you really let your kids suffer through such things if there are corrective procedures? I'm not talking "big nose" or other such minor things, I'm talking cleft palates, male breasts, serious skin conditions, or other such things that alter your appearance.
And liposuction for teens? No.
Bill Loguidice wrote:
It saddens me that she has religion as a crutch, but is not able to reach into herself, dig deep and pull herself out of her despair through it. Now, of course, as a reformed Christian and present day Secular Humanist/Agnostic, I have little use for organized religion, but I would still hope that her faith - whatever it may be - would have given her more strength than it has. .
I didn't see the "religion as a crutch" aspect of her. It seemed, in passing, that she was saying she was an agnostic. Oh, heck, this is the Internet, let me re-read her message and make sure. Yup, here's a quote from the page you provided:
Quote:
"Maybe I still would’ve ended up this way because I’d still be bullied for my taste in music, the fact that I like to read, and that I believe in God, but don’t believe that there is“one true religion” but rather many paths to the same destination."
That's borderline agnostic, or perhaps New Age, but certainly not a mainstream Judeo-Christian/Muslim doctrine. How did you arrive at the "religion as a crutch" conclusion?
Bill Loguidice wrote:
So why am I speaking about this? I'm not sure, really, other than the fact that I've spoken to so few people like this who have seem to well and truly given up on themselves and what they can overcome and accomplish if they really, really wanted. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I was moved (saddened) on some level.
Nonsense. You've spoken to more than a few people who have "given up on themselves." I believe such people are common, perhaps even the norm! They may not show it (which means you might not have immediately recognized it), but you've met more than your share.
I think you already knew that, but I believe you are speaking about this because, on some level, you REALLY identify with Jamisings. You've been there, on some level, in your life; you feel compassion; you EMPATHIZE! You know what it is like to feel helpless, outcast, humiliated, and depressed. If you deny it, then the only other reason you brought this up here (from my viewpoint) is to say "look at this loser.... I'm glad I'm superior to her, for all of you to see."
We all know that the second option is NOT the case! If you were a conceited, condescending lout, then you would have revealed yourself as such long before now! So reach deep within yourself, and ask yourself, "why did Jamisings affect me?" I think I know the answer, but I won't influence you.
Ok, I guess I will: I think it's because you feel her pain, and you want to help this person. And you really can't; your hands are tied by distance and lack of personal contact, and (possibly) the lack of social graces and tact to do so. And your frustration about this conclusion has lead you to vent here. But you've at least discovered a way out of all of this, and want to show people like this the way. This is the "philosophy" that permeates most of your messages, although you keep it subtle for whatever reasons.
Bill Loguidice wrote:
Of course, in my own life, I'm exceedingly blessed with good health, a loving family and fulfilling creative outlets, but that's also due in no small part to my taking the steps that I felt I needed to in my late teens and 20s to make that happen. I really, really wanted it, worked at it, and got it. No amount of hoping or outside assistance would have gotten any of that for me. I hope "Jamisings" can find some of that power, whatever her source.
But you HAD to have had some outside assistance or hope in your journey to where you are now. No one is an island. SOMEONE (or probably MANY SOMEONES) had your back during the down times, be it a family member, friend(s), acquaintances, self-help literature, or whatever. And there's no shame in that. If you truly did EVERYTHING for yourself on your own, then you are either a) an extraordinary person, which undercuts your whole argument, or b) are not recognizing and giving credit to all the little influences or big helps you've gotten from other people.
A lot of people, particularly ELITE people like AA forum members, took a lot of crap when we were younger. You don't survive that without some outside help or camaraderie in some form. Give credit and thanks where it is due!
A lot of people with problems like to play "the blame game." I have a few such friends like this, and I try to empathize, listen, and give advice, but it does get frustrating! And I am guilty of "the blame game" myself, having grown up with that mentality. Everyone else should change, not me! Woe is me!
But sometimes, someone else DOES deserve blame as well. In the case of "Jamisings," how could her(?) parents raise a kid who, from the descriptions, was morbidly obese? After all, the parents control the food and the money, right? Isn't that some form of child abuse? Why would you put your kids through that???? On top of her other listed self-esteem issues, "blame" becomes a great self-defense mechanism over things you can't control, and perhaps it carried over into the adult years. It can also become crippling; a mental prison that it's hard to escape from.
I can drone on and on about this, but I think the key word here is "EMPATHY." That's what you feel, deep down, and it is to your credit there. Somehow she has brought some sympathetic emotion deep from your logical core. But you don't know how to act on it. I don't know either. I'm more of an "in-person" person.
How deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go? :-)
(P.S. I did write a response to this message the other night, but fell asleep before posting it. When I woke up, I re-read what I had typed, and concluded "THIS IS CRAZY!!!!" Just so you know, I saved you from a lunatic rant! Only to post this slightly-less-crazy one.) :-)
You see, as I'm often wont to do - whether it's warranted or not - I often inject my personal mantras/life lessons/lessons learned into my discussions on the Web.
Now, since I'm so conscious of it, I try to save it for special occasions for fear of becoming a real (bigger) bore, but in this case I believe it was warranted.
Bill, occasionally it's a pleasure to break from videogame/geek stuff and talk about real things. Far from making you a "bore," it makes you (and all of us) more real. Videogames aren't everything. :-)
Unfortunately, you chose a very tough subject to go off-topic on, since there are many possible landmines that can erupt from this discussion (as witnessed already!). But I enjoy philosophical discussions, and you seem to be spoiling for one here, so heck, why not?
I had issues MUCH like Jamisings growing up, perhaps lesser in some ways, and perhaps worse in some ways! But fortune, gender difference, psychological research and counseling, medical treatment, good friends, and a deep-down feeling that it all wasn't for nothing; that "I ain't going out like that," helped me get over all of that.(Well, maybe not ALL of it, but the battle scars give me character). I will NEVER be 100 percent of what "mentally happy" people that I've met seem to be, but do I want to be? Do I really want a totally pain-free, smiles-all-the-time life? Would I be any good to anyone if I did?
I'm a believer in the old adage "what doesn't kill you can make you stronger." The emphasis is on the word CAN, as sufferings can also beat someone down into hopelessness and timidity.
Let me say that the subject "should teenagers ever get plastic surgery?" is an ethical/philosophical argument that can be separated from the "self esteem" issue you have brought up. I agree with you in the "fight back, make yourself all you can be" approach to EARNING your self esteem, rather than having someone patronize you into feeling better. But I also feel that plastic surgery is an option for deformative conditions that cannot be fixed through exercise or general medical treatment. In the teenage years, where much of "who you are" is forming, imagine having all kinds of physical deformity issues! Correct them if you can in these youths, I say, if there's no other viable alternatives. Would you really let your kids suffer through such things if there are corrective procedures? I'm not talking "big nose" or other such minor things, I'm talking cleft palates, male breasts, serious skin conditions, or other such things that alter your appearance.
And liposuction for teens? No.
It saddens me that she has religion as a crutch, but is not able to reach into herself, dig deep and pull herself out of her despair through it. Now, of course, as a reformed Christian and present day Secular Humanist/Agnostic, I have little use for organized religion, but I would still hope that her faith - whatever it may be - would have given her more strength than it has. .
I didn't see the "religion as a crutch" aspect of her. It seemed, in passing, that she was saying she was an agnostic. Oh, heck, this is the Internet, let me re-read her message and make sure. Yup, here's a quote from the page you provided:
"Maybe I still would’ve ended up this way because I’d still be bullied for my taste in music, the fact that I like to read, and that I believe in God, but don’t believe that there is“one true religion” but rather many paths to the same destination."
That's borderline agnostic, or perhaps New Age, but certainly not a mainstream Judeo-Christian/Muslim doctrine. How did you arrive at the "religion as a crutch" conclusion?
So why am I speaking about this? I'm not sure, really, other than the fact that I've spoken to so few people like this who have seem to well and truly given up on themselves and what they can overcome and accomplish if they really, really wanted. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I was moved (saddened) on some level.
Nonsense. You've spoken to more than a few people who have "given up on themselves." I believe such people are common, perhaps even the norm! They may not show it (which means you might not have immediately recognized it), but you've met more than your share.
I think you already knew that, but I believe you are speaking about this because, on some level, you REALLY identify with Jamisings. You've been there, on some level, in your life; you feel compassion; you EMPATHIZE! You know what it is like to feel helpless, outcast, humiliated, and depressed. If you deny it, then the only other reason you brought this up here (from my viewpoint) is to say "look at this loser.... I'm glad I'm superior to her, for all of you to see."
We all know that the second option is NOT the case! If you were a conceited, condescending lout, then you would have revealed yourself as such long before now! So reach deep within yourself, and ask yourself, "why did Jamisings affect me?" I think I know the answer, but I won't influence you.
Ok, I guess I will: I think it's because you feel her pain, and you want to help this person. And you really can't; your hands are tied by distance and lack of personal contact, and (possibly) the lack of social graces and tact to do so. And your frustration about this conclusion has lead you to vent here. But you've at least discovered a way out of all of this, and want to show people like this the way. This is the "philosophy" that permeates most of your messages, although you keep it subtle for whatever reasons.
Of course, in my own life, I'm exceedingly blessed with good health, a loving family and fulfilling creative outlets, but that's also due in no small part to my taking the steps that I felt I needed to in my late teens and 20s to make that happen. I really, really wanted it, worked at it, and got it. No amount of hoping or outside assistance would have gotten any of that for me. I hope "Jamisings" can find some of that power, whatever her source.
But you HAD to have had some outside assistance or hope in your journey to where you are now. No one is an island. SOMEONE (or probably MANY SOMEONES) had your back during the down times, be it a family member, friend(s), acquaintances, self-help literature, or whatever. And there's no shame in that. If you truly did EVERYTHING for yourself on your own, then you are either a) an extraordinary person, which undercuts your whole argument, or b) are not recognizing and giving credit to all the little influences or big helps you've gotten from other people.
A lot of people, particularly ELITE people like AA forum members, took a lot of crap when we were younger. You don't survive that without some outside help or camaraderie in some form. Give credit and thanks where it is due!
A lot of people with problems like to play "the blame game." I have a few such friends like this, and I try to empathize, listen, and give advice, but it does get frustrating! And I am guilty of "the blame game" myself, having grown up with that mentality. Everyone else should change, not me! Woe is me!
But sometimes, someone else DOES deserve blame as well. In the case of "Jamisings," how could her(?) parents raise a kid who, from the descriptions, was morbidly obese? After all, the parents control the food and the money, right? Isn't that some form of child abuse? Why would you put your kids through that???? On top of her other listed self-esteem issues, "blame" becomes a great self-defense mechanism over things you can't control, and perhaps it carried over into the adult years. It can also become crippling; a mental prison that it's hard to escape from.
I can drone on and on about this, but I think the key word here is "EMPATHY." That's what you feel, deep down, and it is to your credit there. Somehow she has brought some sympathetic emotion deep from your logical core. But you don't know how to act on it. I don't know either. I'm more of an "in-person" person.
How deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go? :-)
(P.S. I did write a response to this message the other night, but fell asleep before posting it. When I woke up, I re-read what I had typed, and concluded "THIS IS CRAZY!!!!" Just so you know, I saved you from a lunatic rant! Only to post this slightly-less-crazy one.) :-)
qoj hpmoj o+ 6uo73q 3Jv 3svq jnoh 77V